Q&A — what is it like to be an opposition politician-turned-Cabinet member?

Q: Can you take us back to the context in which you were appointed as deputy minister of agriculture in the first Zuma administration, while also leader of the Freedom Front Plus?

Pieter Mulder: It was 2009, and Zuma was sort of the saviour at that stage, strange as it seems now, after [Thabo] Mbeki and the internal fighting. [Zuma] had had some meetings with the Afrikaners beforehand; he was reaching out to Afrikaners. The idea I got was that he wanted to do a Mandela GNU.

He reached out and offered [Cabinet positions] to [IFP leader Mangosuthu] Buthelezi and to me. Buthelezi said yes, but only if he’s a full minister. In the end, the IFP was out and I was in, which was quite difficult. If [Buthelezi] was in it, it would have been easier for me.

What complicated my situation was [former National Party leader] Marthinus van Schalkwyk: he accepted a minister role and became a member of the ANC. A lot of my constituents feared that I too would be co-opted [into the ANC]. But in the end it wasn’t my decision; it was my party structure’s. We had talked till 3am.

We had five conditions for Zuma. One of them was that we had just had an election; [I told Zuma:] “I got a mandate to fight you. Do you think it’s possible to be in your Cabinet and also criticise you?”

He said: “No, no, that’s not a problem.” 

Zuma explained that in 1994, when the IFP won KZN, they offered him a provincial Cabinet role and he took it. 

He said: “I differed [with the IFP] quite often. I fought with them. In Africa, it’s possible to be inside and outside at the same time. It’s your [FW] de Klerk who didn’t understand that.”

But Zuma also told me: “If you ever want to differ, differ in Cabinet first [before taking it public].”

I had to go through those Cabinet agendas till one, two at night.

Outside, we had quite a few fights. I debated with him in Parliament on history. On the land issue, I differed from him and I thought he was going to fire me. But he never did. My points were accepted.

Q: I think I remember that there was some unhappiness within Freedom Front Plus structures at the time about your decision to accept the position?

Pieter Mulder: The youth leader [Cornelius Jansen van Rensburg] was unhappy with it. In the end, it was a Federal Council decision, our top decision-making body. But he had already resigned. It was quite difficult. 

But I did not take the decision on my own. Remember, [Zuma] did not need us. It was different from the current situation [where Ramaphosa needs the support of other political parties to form a government].

I consulted with the agricultural bodies, unions, Solidarity… They were all quite happy.

Q: One of the concerns for opposition parties currently is that if they accept Cabinet positions in the GNU, their voters might punish them in the next election. Was that the case for the FF Plus?

Pieter Mulder: Luckily not. I had a member that took a bet with me [that our vote share would drop]. In the next election, 2014, the number of [FF Plus] votes went past 2009. It wasn’t much better, but it was a little bit better. 

What Marthinus [van Schalkwyk] did was a mistake. If you lose your power base and your credibility, I don’t think you’re of use any more. To get that balance going is quite difficult. 

Q: Some people seem to think that with a DA minister on top, some of these departments will magically turn around. This seems a bit naive, given the constraints they will have to work under: the same civil service, the same unions, directors-general etc. What was your experience as deputy minister of agriculture: is it actually possible to clean things up?

Pieter Mulder: The problem is the civil service. I was quite successful when farmers would come to me, and we could solve problems within a week. But to solve problems with a civil service that is not very effective any more is very difficult. You get a family member of a family member who’s been working there for years and can write a beautiful PowerPoint, but nothing else happens. You’ll have to work around those people.

There is scope to clean up, but it’s a long process. You can’t just fire a guy. It was easier to work around them, and I did this more than once.

The DA won’t like this: yes, the Western Cape is well run and the DA takes all the credit. But I was part of the negotiations when we got Tshwane and we are still struggling up to today. We can’t repeat Cape Town. And the reason is that in ’94 the NP [remained] still in charge of the Western Cape. The ANC never really governed in Cape Town.

Q: On a personal level, did you experience any hostility or suspicion from the department staff, coming in as a white Afrikaans man?

Pieter Mulder: Not really. Because you’re the minister, they’re sort of very friendly. There were people in there that I really trusted. 

What is a problem is the attitude that the DG [director-general] must be loyal to whoever the minister is. Ministers should come and go, DGs must implement policy. Their argument was that the DG must be loyal to the minister. I never got that.

Q: Does being a deputy minister, rather than a minister, come with real power?

Pieter Mulder: Yes and no. The minister can decide how much power to give you.

He can decide what he delegates to the deputy, what powers. He can decide to keep it all with him.

I’ll give you a funny example [of the kind of power I had]. 

On one Saturday afternoon, I was watching rugby and there was a call from a farmer in KZN. He had [imported] fish eggs arrive at Durban airport on Friday afternoon, and [Department of Agriculture officials] said no, they’re not going to allow them through. He said it’s impossible, they’re going to die. I phoned, and within an hour he got his fish.

Another time, I got a call from a mother whose daughter was having her matric dance. The Department of Agriculture confiscated the matric dance dress at the airport. I phoned and said why? The official said no, it was on a wooden hanger. Any wood coming in [to South Africa] must be in quarantine for three months. 

I said, “Do you have a wire hanger?” He said yes. I said, “Keep the wood and put the dress on that.” That morning we got the dress to the mother.

That kind of thing, you can do. You can phone, and the civil service would help me.

Q: The opposition has been vocal in its disapproval of Cabinet perks like blue light brigades and VIP protection. If they take up Cabinet posts, should they refuse to accept these perks?

Pieter Mulder: Well, that’s what I did.

I said I don’t want the ministerial house. I stayed in [Cape Town parliamentary accommodation] Acacia Park and with my mother in Pretoria. Zuma couldn’t understand.

Then I said I don’t want blue lights. They said the blue lights are fixed [on the vehicles]. What if you have a heart attack?

I said we will use the hazards! 

After two months they took the blue lights out. 

Q: Finally, any words of general advice for opposition politicians taking up roles in this Ramaphosa Cabinet?

Pieter Mulder: It’s going to be difficult. Trust is important. 

One of our conditions was that we didn’t know who [Zuma] would appoint as minister of agriculture, but I knew I didn’t want to work with [former Cabinet minister] Lulu Xingwana.

[Agriculture Minister Tina] Joemat-Pettersson was Afrikaans, and that also helped. 

The right to criticise: beforehand, you must get that right. 

You may have access to information [and stumble upon, for instance, corruption]. You must decide under what circumstances you must expose that.

It was important for me to keep my identity, to say I’m not in the ANC. 

Go for common ground. Really look for the basic things. DM